Curse

Sirius-NZ · May 12, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Being good at PvP definitely something you can be much more proud of than being good at PvE. There are no cheap ways out; you can't exploit the enemy's AI weaknesses or builds, because they can adapt to yours. You actually have to win just through being better.

P.S. Yes there are cheap builds, but what do you do when someone uses them against you?

(And for the record, I've historically played much more PvE. PvP is just one of those things I'd like to do but never get the opportunity for.)

Jenn · May 12, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

I think PvP and PvE share a rather large area of fail, and that is FotM builds. There is cookie cutting on either side, and in some cases, cheap advantages. Both sides will use something until the nerf bat whacks it (LoD?).

The two realms also share something pretty awesome, and that is the fact that you can play with other people. You can whine all you want about "Ursan being the only thing the game" but it's not. In both PvE and PvP there are teams that coordinate, work together, plan, and help. That's the most powerful thing in this game. No matter what/who we face, we can share our minds to defeat the enemy.

What I don't understand is when people have to get arrogant and snotty about their choice of enemy. Not all PvPers are smart and leet, and not all PvEers are scrubs. What I think makes a leet, smart and fun player is someone who is a smart PERSON. The people who I think are truly smart are those who are capable of learning, adapting, inventing, and application of understanding. Some of these people are found only in PvE, some ony in PvP, and some play in both realms. I think the choice of playing in either realm is dependent on the personality of the player. Some enjoy a more agressive environment, and some enjoy a more cooperative one.

Why is one type of person better than another? That's what frustrates me. >_<

Aba · May 12, 2008, 12:43 AM // 00:43

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Why is one type of person better than another? That's what frustrates me. >_<

same, its a game, go play it and have fun.
when it all comes down to it the agruement is very pointless....

DarkNecrid · May 12, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

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P.S. Yes there are cheap builds, but what do you do when someone uses them against you?

There are not cheap builds, only builds that are more or less effective due to the current rules set by the game.

Any player who disagrees does not understand competition, it is that simple. This would be like calling throws in Street Fighter 2 cheap. It's part of the game. Live with it.

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I think PvP and PvE share a rather large area of fail, and that is FotM builds. There is cookie cutting on either side, and in some cases, cheap advantages. Both sides will use something until the nerf bat whacks it (LoD?).

In PvE, this is because those builds win fast, in PvP, this is because those builds win eventually and more than any other build. Cookie cutting is not bad always, it is only bad when the things being cookie cuttered provide novices an easier time of winning. FotM builds will always happen, and that is readily apparent given the nature of the game. One could say when the game is perfectly balanced it wouldn't, but who is to say. There will always be people now, 3 years later, who understand the mechanics not from a purely by-the-books stance, but by a pure mathematical stance, able to tell you if something is going to work at a mere glance of the skill updates, before something is even put into action. These people look at 1,000+ skills daily, not just on how to improve their build, but on how to make the next best thing, and they do it better than anyone else.

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same, its a game, go play it and have fun.

It's no longer a game when a reward is thrown in there, for most people.

I dare you to go up to Augie, during the GWWC (might of been GWFC on second thought....my history is a bit rusty

) when he cussed out loud in front of tons of people while they were going for the 50,000$ prize that it was just a game. PvPers don't see a game, we see a competition, restricted by the rules that are the game.

There is the game of football, that you and me could talk about, but when you're in there, playing it seriously, with the big guys, it's no longer a game. It's no longer about the game. It's about that sweet prize known as victory, and kicking the other guy's ass.

You throw in other people to the mix, and it's no longer just a "game". The idea that you can frustrate someone on the other end by owning him super hard, crushing his morale both in-game and off, is exhilarating. Playing as a Mesmer and catching a Monks WoH with Diversion, then watching as your team pushes hard on them, picturing how that monk player is squirming in his computer chair. That's what PvPers live for.

arcanemacabre · May 12, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

You throw in other people to the mix, and it's no longer just a "game". The idea that you can frustrate someone on the other end by owning him super hard, crushing his morale both in-game and off, is exhilarating. Playing as a Mesmer and catching a Monks WoH with Diversion, then watching as your team pushes hard on them, picturing how that monk player is squirming in his computer chair. That's what PvPers live for.

Exactly why many play only PvE - they like playing "just a game." I suppose for those 'e-sport' players, it becomes hard to accept that there may be people who buy video games purely for the sake of fun, competition or not. Even when I do PvP, I play for fun, not to be the best there is, no matter what it takes. That doesn't mean I don't play to win - after all, that is the object of "the game." That just means that to win is not the end-all be-all like it should be for professional sports.

The GWFC is somewhat understandable simply because real money was involved. I don't particularly like the idea of it being "professional" so-to-speak, especially when the game is far from balanced and rules are sketchy at best, but to compete for real prizes is a-ok with me. I would train for something like that if I had the time, definitely. But in a game where all you get is intangible recognition and virtual goods that get you nowhere quick? I just don't see the point, other than the fun. There's no real incentive to become truly competitive and strive to be "the best."

Again, not that I would anyway as I simply don't have the time. I can't even vanquish an area without taking multiple breaks to go do that crappy real-life stuff. PvE just fits my lifestyle aside from the occasional AB or RA. If I'm a 'scrub' for that, well, then I'm a scrub. You guys go enjoy your virtual pats on the back for "pwning face."

DarkNecrid · May 12, 2008, 05:14 AM // 05:14

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Exactly why many play only PvE - they like playing "just a game." I suppose for those 'e-sport' players, it becomes hard to accept that there may be people who buy video games purely for the sake of fun, competition or not. Even when I do PvP, I play for fun, not to be the best there is, no matter what it takes. That doesn't mean I don't play to win - after all, that is the object of "the game." That just means that to win is not the end-all be-all like it should be for professional sports.

PvP can be just a game too, you can have friendly games of football, for example, but once you throw a prize in there anything becomes way more serious. I'm not talking about in-game prizes tho. Playing to win should be what gives you fun in PvP, and you should be playing to win because of it. You don't learn otherwise.

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especially when the game is far from balanced and rules are sketchy at best

I guess this really depends on what your definition of balance is, and how far you take it, but one could argue no sport (not even chess) is truly balanced, due to the fact that you add humans to it, and with humans and their randomness and tactics and strategy and varying skill levels, unbalance the game. A human can see things no one, sometimes not even other humans, can, and that changes everything. These same people would argue that chess is imbalanced unless you play a game where both people are of an equal skill level. I'm not going to say whether I agree with this or not, as it's just balance taken to the extreme. I much rather prefer balance by rules, but even then sports are dictated by a 3rd ruling party (refs) who sometimes call things differently depending on the game, providing a certain level of bias and unfairness to the game.

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But in a game where all you get is intangible recognition and virtual goods that get you nowhere quick? I just don't see the point, other than the fun. There's no real incentive to become truly competitive and strive to be "the best."

Just because you can't feel something, or whatever, doesn't mean it isn't gratifying to people. I can't personally feel the intangible 1,500$+ in my bank account, but that doesn't mean it doesn't feel awesome. Likewise, I can't personally feel the amount of knowledge and skill I've gained from this game, but it's still very gratifying and something I (and others) have taken away from the game.

I have nothing wrong with people who "don't get" the competitive mindset, not everyone does. That's cool. What I do have something wrong with, is the people who changed this game completely from what it was originally about, because of ignorance. You wouldn't be able to tell it now, but the game was originally meant to be a tutorial into PvP. The 3 desert missions? All PvP game types. Factions? Hella short. There's a good reason why the first two chapters have very weak PvE campaigns, in the form of content, things to do, and such. It's because the game was meant to be a PvP game.

Can't tell that now, because the hardcore just don't get it. The sad thing is, like I said before, they are greedy, they want everything for themselves, and with the skill balance separation, they've finally gotten everything for themselves. Not only have they removed the concept of skill > time by whining about needing more stuff to do (to which, Anet added titles, rep grinds, super grind to earn items (GLACIAL STONES), PvE skills which need grind to make UBER....) but they forced ArenaNet to change the focus of the game. They don't understand that skill balances, the nerfs and buffs, are what change the game, and keep it dynamic. They don't understand that now they are never going to see another nerf, that they are only going to see buffs, bringing stuff up to Ursan levels.

PvP is the only thing in this game that is still Guild Wars, the Guild Wars I beta'd, bought when it came out, and thoroughly enjoyed, because it is the only thing that is not grind, that is skill > time. That is why I stopped PvEing solo, and only do it with friends, if that. I understand online RPG's change, but they rarely, if ever, change their design goals. It saddens me a bit.

Vengeful Spirit · May 12, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

for me there is no divide between PvE and PvP I play both, i play PvE when i feel like being the hero who takes on legions of monsters and when i feel the competitiveness come on i go do some PvP but to put it simply I am a GW player and play all aspects of the game

HuntMaster Avatar · May 12, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

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Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Why is one type of person better than another? That's what frustrates me. >_<

This has been going on since gaming began when there is more than one way to play a game.

Exsamples of newer games.
Mario bros full play vs warp pipes
Grand turismo automatic vs manual
Diablo1 pvm vs pvp
Diablo 2 pvm vs pvp
Diablo 2 ladder vs non ladder
Diablo 2 softcore vs hardcore
Starcraft1 melee vs custom maps
starcraft1 protoss vs terrain
starcraft1 terrain vs protoss
starcraft1 zerg vs protoss
starcraft 1 terrain vs zerg
starcraft1 standard vs fastest
warcraft ladder vs custom maps
warcraft orcs vs humans
warcraft night elves vs undead
warcraft night elves vs humans
warcraft orcs vs undead
eq1 rp vs pvp
dawn of war terminator+ dreadnought drop vs ork swarm
any FPS game. headshots vs explosive death
street fighter2 melee combat vs projectile combat
tekken throws vs counters
dungeons and dragons roleplay vs metagame
mortal combat speed trip build vs teleport stun build
internet Online gaming vs offline gaming.
magic the gathering single color vs multicolor decks

I could go on forever. Its a pointless recycling bin of a discussion. No player is the best, They may be good for a moment, but their time will pass. Look at the ladder RTS champions, they never win all the time. Same with console wars tournaments like halo, champions come and go. No one is the best forever, they are only the "Known" best for that moment.

Everyone has good days when they make no mistakes and everything goes right, and bad days when they make mistake after mistake and nothing goes right. Plus PVP in guildwars is a team effort, No single person wins the day, it requires teamwork. So NO player is the best in guildwars, But guildwars has some very good teamwork.

tmakinen · May 12, 2008, 06:17 AM // 06:17

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The idea that you can frustrate someone on the other end by owning him super hard, crushing his morale both in-game and off, is exhilarating. Playing as a Mesmer and catching a Monks WoH with Diversion, then watching as your team pushes hard on them, picturing how that monk player is squirming in his computer chair. That's what PvPers live for.

This is what I would call an unhealthy mental predisposition. There are people who willingly torture and even kill others because of the feeling of power they get from being able to control a living being and watch it squirm under his almost godlike power. Don't say anything about it being a game since you readily admit getting a boner from the fact that there's an actual person whom you're 'owning super hard' (that goes from being a mere slip to a good glide, if you get my drift

) Let's say that if you can constrain these kind of activities to virtual arenas then all is well.

When I play PvP the only thing from which I derive satisfaction is a job well done. Did I make mistakes, and how severe? Could - indeed should - I have done something more effectively? Did I learn anything from it? I feel totally indifferent to what the opponent is thinking outside game objectives. Winning or losing has only a tangential relation to how I feel about a match. A won but sloppy match against a bad opponent makes me displeased. A lost match against a worthy opponent makes me feel upbeat if I could still perform to the top of my ability (since this is a team game, good performance from any particular player is not indicative of a win, and you can always lose to somebody better than you regardless). So don't claim that all PvPers share your dirty little ways.

Jam Jar · May 12, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I could go on forever. Its a pointless recycling bin of a discussion. No player is the best, They may be good for a moment, but their time will pass. Look at the ladder RTS champions, they never win all the time. Same with console wars tournaments like halo, champions come and go. No one is the best forever, they are only the "Known" best for that moment.

QFT! Tiger, Zezima, all those retards with no life, are being forgotten. A NEW DAWN IS ARRIVING!

DarkNecrid · May 12, 2008, 06:36 AM // 06:36

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This is what I would call an unhealthy mental predisposition. There are people who willingly torture and even kill others because of the feeling of power they get from being able to control a living being and watch it squirm under his almost godlike power. Don't say anything about it being a game since you readily admit getting a boner from the fact that there's an actual person whom you're 'owning super hard' (that goes from being a mere slip to a good glide, if you get my drift ) Let's say that if you can constrain these kind of activities to virtual arenas then all is well.

You're kidding me right? There's a bit difference between frustrating someone in a game, and torturing and killing someone irl. You're making yourself look dumb, stop it. You're like those people who think I'm going to go shoot up everyone down the street because I play an FPS. No. Just...no. It's called being in the moment of the game. Catching an interception and running the full football field for the game winning point. Catching your opponent off guard with an awesome power play, snagging a morale boost, and destroying their guild lord. Getting a double perfect with a low tier character in a fighting game. Making a half court shot with 10 seconds left on the clock on a tie game, as the basketball goes in.

Lighten up.

edit: and i didn't mention anything about a boner tyvm

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When I play PvP the only thing from which I derive satisfaction is a job well done. Did I make mistakes, and how severe? Could - indeed should - I have done something more effectively? Did I learn anything from it? I feel totally indifferent to what the opponent is thinking outside game objectives. Winning or losing has only a tangential relation to how I feel about a match. A won but sloppy match against a bad opponent makes me displeased. A lost match against a worthy opponent makes me feel upbeat if I could still perform to the top of my ability (since this is a team game, good performance from any particular player is not indicative of a win, and you can always lose to somebody better than you regardless). So don't claim that all PvPers share your dirty little ways.

Me...too?

So...you don't feel good at all or anything when you finally, after 20 minutes, secure exactly what is needed to crush your enemy huh? Narrowly losing and then your mesmer diverts an important skill, your Ranger DShots another one, your wars are fully adrenalined up ready to go hulk smash, your monks are pumped up with energy.....nothing?

tmakinen · May 12, 2008, 06:53 AM // 06:53

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

.....nothing?

No, I don't fap to mental images of people bending over for my 'super hard ownage', and quite frankly, I find the whole idea pretty disgusting.

And about the real life thing, I said predisposition.

Bront · May 12, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

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Originally Posted by Kusandaa

PvP takes more skills, yes. I agree. (See, I agree!)

I think this is the biggest problem with the arguement.

High End PvP requires more skill, but that doesn't mean that PvPers are inherently more skilled than PvEers.

Part of the problem, is that high end skill generally requires some amount of dedication, and PvE is more friendly to casual play, so while you probably have PvE and PvPers of equivalent high end skill, there are a lot more casual players who simply don't have as much skill in the PvE side.

Also, the skills required are different. PvP requires consistent adjustment and preparation vs a potentially unknown opponent, as well as lots of team work. You're pitted against another human, who can think and adapt more than an AI might, and many human factors are prevalent (Opponent having a good/bad day, fatigue, injury (not injured playing PvP I hope), etc). It also tends to draw more competitive players, where their goal is to be the best, often simply to say they're better than you.

PvE meanwhile, is fairly constant in content, opponents can be researched ahead of time, or experienced and adjusted to, and they don't adjust back. It's run by an AI, that may be quick, but is somewhat predictable, and unless you're the first ever to do some content, the content has been done before and you can read the wiki/learn about what you are doing. You can also H/H or use a team of friends. On top of all this, many PvE areas are not designed to he high end challenges, so there are parts of PvE that are simply easy.

They are different, in some ways require a different set of skills, and have different learning curves. It's unfortunately a perception that says one player is better than another simply because you need more to excel at one than another.

arcanemacabre · May 12, 2008, 07:16 AM // 07:16

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

PvP can be just a game too, you can have friendly games of football, for example, but once you throw a prize in there anything becomes way more serious. I'm not talking about in-game prizes tho. Playing to win should be what gives you fun in PvP, and you should be playing to win because of it. You don't learn otherwise.

Obviously it can, which is why I say I can enjoy PvP as a game. My point was that those striving for number one, those who take their competitive attitudes beyond the match and apply it to their own teammates, 'noobs,' and of course the matter at hand, forums, no longer see it as just a game. Why do many of these individuals feel the need to insult others at every chance just because they don't see the 'game' the same way? I'll tell you why - their competitive nature. It is this very behavior that grates against these 'scrubs' who just want to enjoy their game their way.

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I guess this really depends on what your definition of balance is...

Official tournaments held in a specific location are much more respectable because everyone is on relatively equal footing. The hardware is standardized, communication is unhindered, etc. This 'balanced' setting allows the results to be mostly up to player skill, barring odd bugs in the game or the abuse of exploits. However, in-game tournaments are heavily subject to many hardware issues between players who are sometimes separated by countries and even continents. Only the very best computers with the very best connections, not to mention the use of 3rd party VOIP software (which may run into other issues), would really make that player's performance reliable on skill alone. Of course, since GW is a team game, that would have to be true for not just 8 players, but all 16 in a single match.

But, I digress, this really isn't the point anyway. Just showing a reason why 'professional' gaming is a joke.

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Just because you can't feel something, or whatever, doesn't mean it isn't gratifying to people. I can't personally feel the intangible 1,500$+ in my bank account, but that doesn't mean it doesn't feel awesome. Likewise, I can't personally feel the amount of knowledge and skill I've gained from this game, but it's still very gratifying and something I (and others) have taken away from the game.

1,500$ in your bank is tangible the minute you buy something with it. It is potential tangibility. Is that a word? *shrug* I mean, unless you plan on ebaying your treasure. In which case, good luck with that, and nice job.

But, to address your real point, I completely understand what you mean by that gratifying reward. I just don't share your enthusiasm with that particular reward, and personally don't find it gratifying.

Let me add, I am quite a competitive person by nature. My top three favorite game genres go in this order: Fighting Games, FPSs, RPGs. That's right, the first two are about as competitive as it gets, and I love destroying my opponents. I know that thrill, and I love it. You know what, though? I just don't get that thrill with Guild Wars.

You mention what Guild Wars has 'turned into,' and I agree with what GW was originally intended to be. That's actually one of the main reasons I bought it. I really thought it would be an FPS RPG. I didn't think for a minute that it was anything like WoW or any other MMO, I literally thought I could have the fast-paced action of an FPS with the character-building and customization of an RPG. That is so what GW was not, and still isn't.

What it was and is, is a more balanced and PvP-focused WoW. That's fine, I thought, I'll just enjoy that RPG element, and just PvP a little, which is of course what I did. GW wasn't what I expected, nor what I really wanted, but I grew to like it just the same because I loved the RPG elements.

That's my story, and like all of us wonderful snowflakes, we all have different ones. Regardless, I think the underlying point is similar among us all - we had certain expectations, and things changed. I dislike the hardcore grind the game has adopted to become more MMO-standard, and I've always disliked this hardcore competitive side PvP has, despite the gameplay not really supporting it (IMO). Still, I like GW as a whole, even if parts are severely lacking for me.

I just think all the brags and insults by everyone on either side of the game directed to the other side are pretty much unwarranted. I don't have a problem with brags and insults within the respective sides, hell that's a part of any game. But with these 'sides' being effectively two different games, it is extremely pointless to yell at each other.

There is that terrible phrase about the Special Olympics... yeah... PvE vs. PvP is the Special Olympics. To those who have won, here's your medal. Grats.

Cab Tastic · May 12, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

As someone who plays both PVE and PVP to me the main difference is how easy it is to pick up and play.

Generally when playing PVE you can start a mission, after 5 mins make some food, make a phone call, go to shops etc. If you are H/H you can play the game at your own pace. You have no responsibility to take other peoples game experience into account. This is always going to be the most popular form of this type of game as it is very casual friendly. Most of the population of this world have RL responisibilities that make serious PvP a very hard thing to dedicate the time to.

having said that I like to do HA from time to time when the opportunity arises.
From when I decided I wanted to do HA it takes work. You need to learn the builds that are popular and how to use them. Before I got to rank 3 I had to blag, lie to get ina group. But most importantly get a friends list of poeple you have met there to regularly get on teams.

Do I think PvP takes more skill, yes I do. The very top levels of PvP players are truly great. However the average PvP players who frequent HA are no better than your average PVE player(and I consider myself to be average also, despite having rank).

DarkNecrid · May 12, 2008, 12:03 PM // 12:03

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Originally Posted by tmakinen

No, I don't fap to mental images of people bending over for my 'super hard ownage', and quite frankly, I find the whole idea pretty disgusting.

And about the real life thing, I said predisposition.

Jesus RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO i didn't even say any of that. :|

You must find PvP rather boring if you can't even get excited for when your team is starting to win. You missed my entire point because you care more about the possibly theoretical mental state of someone on the internet than reading between the lines.

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But, I digress, this really isn't the point anyway. Just showing a reason why 'professional' gaming is a joke.

It used to be a joke, but professional gaming is now more serious, as gaming is no longer not just the nerd thing to do like it was back in the 80s/90s. My teachers in high school would get together to play Guitar Hero every Sunday for example.

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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

:words:

That's cool, again I am talking about the hardcore PvErs who are obviously ignorant and try to talk about PvP like they know what they are talking about really. (BUT....PARAGONS AREN'T BROKEN JUST TAKE [vocal minority] JEEZ....)

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As someone who plays both PVE and PVP to me the main difference is how easy it is to pick up and play.

Thanks for screwing this up ArenaNet.